About This Episode
Episode Transcript
The transcript below has been lightly edited for brevity and clarity.
Layla Kattermann 0:00
One should know their rights. Their current oppression is usually unconstitutional and unlawful. The police certainly is exercising unlawful conduct.
Diala Shammas 0:11
I tell people don’t stop speaking out, don’t stop opposing genocide. You are on the right side of history even though it doesn’t feel that way oftentimes.
Yara Hawari 0:27
On October 7th, 2023, Hamas’s military wing, the Qassam Brigade, launched a guerrilla operation beyond the Israeli military fences that encircle Gaza killing an estimated 1, 400 Israelis. Since then the Israeli regime has embarked on a renewed bombardment campaign and has intensified the siege of Gaza as well as increasing repression in the West Bank and across colonized Palestine.
At the time of recording the Gaza Strip was still under Israeli regime bombardment. The number of Palestinians killed are over 5, 000 with at least 2, 000 of them children and the number is still climbing. Many people are still missing, trapped under the rubble of their own homes. This is an ongoing genocide of Palestinians in Gaza.
Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of people around the world have hit the streets in their hometowns, declaring solidarity with the Palestinian people. Organizations and groups have also put out statements condemning the Israeli regime, not only for its most recent onslaught, but also for its decades long colonial occupation of Palestine.
Yet this widespread international solidarity has been facing repression and an Orwellian crackdown from governments and various different actors. Joining me to discuss what this repression looks like and how we can challenge it are two guests. Firstly, Layla Kattermann is the monitor project manager for the European Legal Support Center Layla studied international studies at Leiden University in the Netherlands and specialized in the Middle East focusing on the media discourse surrounding Palestine and Israeli regime disinformation Layla is also a co founder of the national student coalition for Palestine in the Netherlands.
And secondly, Diala Shammas, senior staff attorney at the Center for Constitutional Rights, where she works on challenging government and law enforcement abuses perpetrated under the guise of national security in the US and abroad. Prior to joining the Center for Constitutional Rights, she taught and supervised legal clinics at Stanford Law School and CUNY Law School. She also represents and advises social justice and human rights advocates as they face repressions at the hands of the state and private actors p in regards to Palestine.
Let’s start off with an overview of what we have been seeing in the way of repression of Palestinian solidarity activism. Layla, perhaps we can begin with you. What has this looked like in Europe?
Layla Kattermann 3:04
The kind of repression we’re currently seeing in Europe is the manifestation of its decades long attempt to connect the Palestinian identity and experience to terrorism and antisemitism.
Although the right to protest is considered an important right in Europe and demonstrations are an indicator of a healthy democratic system, several countries such as Germany, France, and Austria are violating that right by banning pro Palestine demonstrations. In Germany, not only are protests being banned, but activists are also being harassed by the police for wearing a Kuffieye or holding a Palestinian flag.
It is also turning into surveillance. We have also witnessed police violence and arrests for showing solidarity with Palestine. In Berlin alone, actually, we have counted 600 detentions since the 11th to the 20th of October. It has been the worst in Berlin where, for example, the Berlin Senate for Education, Youth and Families sent a letter to all Berlin school authorities and supervisors asking to ban Kuffieye and in schools, among other things.
But these other things are any demonstration of activities or expressions of opinion and and support of Palestine. So wearing relevant clothing, having stickers with texts like, like free Palestine wearing the map of Palestine on a necklace using expressions such as through Palestine, they have not only been asked to ban such activities on school premises, but also to notify the police when that happens, which even includes primary schools.
In one primary school the school director was actually suspended for not complying with this ban. Even in France, which is considered the place for protests, the French have also banned protests in cities like Paris and Toulouse. People have not sticked to these demonstration bans.
They still went on the street, not only in France but also in Germany, which has caused a lot of upheaval in the media, as well as a lot of police brutality, which were trying to break up these demonstrations. Other forms of repression also include smear campaigns, online de platforming, withdrawal of use of venues, cancellations of events, disinvitations,
threat of legal action. Some people have been fined for having a Palestine flag or umbrella with the Kuffieye on it. And of course, there’s also loss of employment or suspensions from positions from political parties or municipalities, et cetera, for expressing solidarity with Palestine. The current racist arguments used to justify the repression is not surprising considering the rise of far right parties in Europe, which have consistently dehumanized migrants, refugees, and Muslims in European foreign and internal politics.
But the attack on Palestinians is currently very very visible.
Yara Hawari 6:07
Diala, what has this looked like in the US?
Diala Shamas 6:11
In the U. S., we’ve seen a range of incidents of repression, everything from state repression to private repression. So, on the state side, we’re seeing law enforcement, including the FBI, approach people for questioning, so called voluntary interviews. The incidents that I’ve heard of are all Palestinians, including people who might have immigration concerns or where they’re leveraging their immigration status to try to get them to speak with them.
We’ve also seen local police departments circulate notices indicating that they’re going to be doing special monitoring or surveillance of pro Palestine protests. We of course saw this from the highest levels of government and Biden in his speech said that he was instructing law enforcement to monitor the situation closely.
And he was referring to people who are speaking out about Palestine. I mean, that’s how we all understood those remarks. We’ve also had, here in New York City, the mayor essentially equate protesters who were marching and speaking out in support of Palestinian rights with support for terrorism.
We’ve seen that across the board different elected officials across city, state , and federal electeds too. So it’s really concerning when you have this kind of huge power imbalance. You have, members of Congress and elected officials talking about student groups naming individual students, citing student organization statements.
That feels really unprecedented. And then there’s a private repression. We’ve seen this really kind of at frightening levels. There have been campaigns to target and shut down events. This weekend we were all supposed to be gathering at the conference put on and hosted by the U. S. Campaign for Palestinian Rights. But the Hilton Hotel received so many threats that they ended up cancelling the event. We’ve also seen a surge in hate crimes. Of course, everybody’s heard at this point of Badee’, the 60 year old in Chicago who was stabbed to death 23 times because he’s Palestinian.
And then we’ve also seen, and this is what I think we’re seeing a lot of coverage of is the sort of professional consequences. We’re seeing the doxing which means the posting of information, private information, identifying information of people who are speaking out in support of Palestinian rights or who are speaking out against the genocide against the Palestinians in Gaza, suffering a range of professional consequences, getting fired from their jobs.
We’ve seen that happen at academic institutions, at hospitals, been in touch with a therapist who’s been fired because they posted something on their social media. And that’s really happening at a scale that we don’t even kind of fully grasp yet. I think it’s happening across the country.
Another example of the doxxing is we’ve seen these Israel aligned organizations pay for trucks to project the faces and names of students on campuses that have signed statements condemning Israeli atrocities in Gaza. So these are acts of intimidation. They’re intended to have mental health consequences as well as professional consequences.
And these same organizations as well as individuals are emailing calling employers and demanding that their employees face consequences. As a result of their speech in support of Palestinian life and rights. This is all, I mean, the scale of this is still to be seen, but we noticed that some of the most of the targets of a lot of this kind of private doxying and targeting and private repression are not only Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims, but people of color.
The most kind of public example of this is the NYU student, Reina Workman, who is drawn the full force of condemnation from the university as well as public officials and newspapers. And I think it’s not a coincidence that the folks who are standing in solidarity with Palestinians are also from marginalized groups themselves and are facing the brunt of this repression.
Yara Hawari 11:09
There’s a lot of people that feel like this kind of repression is unprecedented. Do you think that’s the case? And if so, why?
Layla Kattermann 11:18
No, I don’t think it is unprecedented. The repression of the Palestine solidarity movement or Palestinian rights advocacy did not start with the latest bombardment of Gaza. The ELSC has been monitoring Europe’s crackdown on Palestine Solidarity since 2019.
The silencing of Palestinian human rights advocacy, which violates the freedom of expression, assembly and association, the three freedoms that are fundamental in opening civic space is not only violated for Palestinians, but also of anyone expressing solidarity with the Palestinian cause.
And it is currently being, I mean, not only currently, but especially now, justified with a racist depiction of Palestinian voices and advocates as terrorist threats and being inherently anti Semitic. I’d say that by inscribing the other as a barbaric threat and the self as a moral security, the strategy promoted by Europe to counter Palestine’s solidarity has made Europeans think in the terms of George Orwell’s 1984 newspeak.
where the objective of Newspeak was to invent new words and strip undesirable ones from their unorthodox meaning. That is to say, the language used by European media, politicians, and police orders which currently justify this repression, or are used to justify this repression is aimed at making a thought diverging from the colonial mainstream narratives literally unthinkable.
At the moment, we see a very strong effort of European politicians and media to socialize Europeans to think and act on Palestine in a way that echoes the us versus them and civilized versus uncivilized dictonomy of 911. However, the mechanisms and tactics used to silence criticism of Israel today are not as visible as imprisonments and murders of dissidents were in the past.
So instead, Israel and Europe practice something that Yasbir Pawar calls the right to maim, meaning the right to permanently damage or disable a people’s physical, psychological, and organizational strength. So Israel attempts to disable more Palestinians than it kills. Such as in the march of return and Europe attempts to damage more civil societies than it shut down.
However, what is different now is that several European states are actually actively shutting down civil societies and criminalizing solidarity groups such as semi doom as well as widely used slogans like from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. But what is happening right now is might be unprecedented in terms of its criminalization, but at the same time, it is the continuation of a trend that Europe has been working on for five years, such as the implementation of the IHRA definition or anti BDS motions, which all now are, of course, blowing up in the face of the Palestine Solidarity Movement.
Diala Shamas 14:11
I think there’s a question of, like, quality and scale. I think it’s not unprecedented to the extent that we have seen all of these avenues of repression for a very long time.
We’ve seen law enforcement target Palestine advocates. We’ve seen campus suppression of activism. We published a report called the Palestine exception to free speech many, many years ago, documenting this. But I do think that the scale is unprecedented. I know from conversations with Palestine Legal, who’ve been doing this, the main organization in the U. S. that supports advocates for Palestinian rights when they face instances of suppression, , they’ve never seen these kinds of numbers coming in. And I think the way to understand this, it’s helpful to think of the sort of architecture of repression over at least a decade, there’s been the building of this kind of infrastructure to repress Palestine, Palestine speech and advocacy, whether it’s through the passing of legislation, whether it’s through the development of these kind of theories of of of anti Semitism or support for terrorism, whether it’s the funding and development of organizations like The Lawfare Project, or Shiraj Hadeen, and so that, that’s the architecture, and then in a moment like this, it’s like you can just flip a switch and activate it all at once.
So it’s the same, it’s all of the same features, but at a scale that does really feel unprecedented. But these are machines that have become very well oiled in many ways over a long period of time. And I would say, like, the only silver lining is because this has been a longer process, this didn’t all just start yesterday. We also have institutions and professionals who are able to jump in this moment of crisis and provide a line of defense. And I’m here referring to organizations like Palestine Legal and the huge network of attorneys that they’ve built up you know, our own organization, CCR is also able to step in.
We are able to meet this moment. But there’s also a dire need to kind of expand and handle an unprecedented caseload.
Yara Hawari 16:35
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So what kind of work have the European Legal Support Centre been involved in, in light of this repression?
So we are movement lawyers, so we are accountable to Palestinian civil society organisations and the law in a pragmatic way, so we’re aware of its critical aspects, which usually make law an exploitative tool.
Layla Kattermann 16:55
So we acknowledge that law is used as a tool of oppression, but we also see law as a tool of resistance that can mobilize people. We have three pillars at the ELSC defend, monitor, and advocacy. The defend pillar works as a filter between clients and lawyers. So we offer co counseling and expertise and also help clients to make campaigns for cases, we have two approaches to cases. So we have offensive cases which is aimed at holding the actors accountable such as, for example the case of Anna Younes, where an organization in Germany called Rias which monitors antisemitism and has been monitoring Palestinian activists. They made a secret dossier about Anna, portraying her as anti Semitic, and she was disinvited from several events. So we sued them for the violation of privacy laws. Then there’s also another offensive case, which is the BT three P collective lawsuits against the German Bundestag against the anti BDS motion with lawyer Ahmed Abed.
In that regard, we already won dozens of cases which defies the legality of that motion. And then, of course, there’s defensive cases where we deal with the damage made of their oppression. I personally work in the monitor sector where we have collected over 700 incidents of repression in the last three years.
And that is excluding the more than 100 incidents that we have collected since October 7th.
Yara Hawari 18:48
Diala, you began talking a little bit about the work that you and your organization have been involved in. Can you expand upon that for us?
Diala Shamas 18:56
Just in the past couple of weeks, we’ve all been in rapid response mode.
It’s very hard to strike this balance of focusing on repression and making sure that people are protected as they speak out and also not lose the focus on what’s happening in Gaza and in Palestine. And so I think the first thing I would say is we’ve been really focused on trying to offer language and analysis, as well as legal analysis about what Israel is doing against the Palestinian people in Gaza.
We, for example, offered legal analysis that supports what everybody is saying, which is that what Israel is doing is genocide against the people in Gaza, but also laying out U. S. complicity. So we don’t want to lose sight of really the focus here, which is calls to support Palestinians in Palestine.
But at the same time, we have to step up our work to support those who are doing the important advocacy in the U. S. So we’ve been in rapid response mode representing individuals who’ve been contacted by the FBI for questioning. We have been fielding calls from people across the country who are dealing with consequences in their workplace for speaking out against Palestine.
I know Palestine Legal is really holding a lot of this. And they’ve been building out an attorney’s network. You know, a lot of employment law experts are needed right now. A lot of advice on how to handle incidents of doxing, both in terms of your personal safety as well as your online reputation.
It’s sort of an all hands on deck situation. And it has been really kind of great to see so many people within the legal community reach out and ask how they can support. And so the network is growing to meet that need.
Yara Hawari 21:03
What kind of advice would you give people and groups who are organizing at the moment and who might be feeling apprehensive or fearful in light of all of this?
Layla Kattermann 21:13
My main advice is not to be intimidated. The allegations and accusations that the media and so on use against the Palestine Solidarity Movement are nothing new. I think we should be confident enough in encountering them. There’s also a big defiance achievable through numbers. The demonstration bans in Berlin, although the police really tries their best to prevent any assembly or protest from happening when there’s a lot of numbers, they can’t do much. So even though there’s a demonstration ban in Germany and there was one in France, people still went on the streets in huge numbers. So huge that the police couldn’t do anything. Of course they can still be violent, but people will stick together and march regardless.
And apart from that, I think it is the time to speak up and out more than like to speak out against what is happening more than ever before. A lot of people are, it is, I think also the time to join forces. So to become, to like connect with other people at whether you’re place of employment or study or elsewhere which share the same passion or will to do something about it and to organize together.
Smear campaigns, for example, which targets a person, usually aim to isolate a person from society. It is always easier to attack one person than a group. So there’s definitely strength in numbers when it comes to defying the current repression.
Diala Shamas 22:50
I think the first thing I’d say is we have to remind ourselves that although we’re seeing this unprecedented repression, we’re also seeing an unprecedented amount of solidarity and people speaking out against what’s happening to Palestinians in Gaza right now.
And we’ve always said this, you know, the rise in repression is in direct correlation with the growing movement for Palestinian rights. Concretely, I tell people, don’t stop speaking out, don’t stop opposing genocide, you are on the right side of history, even though it doesn’t feel that way oftentimes.
I also, you know, tell folks to be cautious. We’re all really angry and outraged, are experiencing a sense of abandonment, we’re all, you know, watching these images on our screens of just some of the most horrific scenes, right? It’s really hard to, to sort of stay, to be our best selves in that moment.
It is a moment of rage, of frustration, of sadness. And also that’s when we most see lapses in judgment. So I think keeping that in mind as we see rises in repression is really important. We can’t, as Palestinians, as advocates for Palestinian rights, afford the luxury of a lapse in judgment. If you’re contacted by law enforcement for questioning, know that you don’t have to speak with them.
So this is my little mini know your rights. Make sure you just tell them that your lawyer will call them, take their number and reach out to Palestine Legal or the Center for Constitutional Rights or Your local National Lawyers Guild chapter, or your local CARE chapter, or your local ACLU chapter.
There are many resources within the movement to support you in that moment. And that’s fine. It’s a normal thing to do. In terms of the employment piece of it, if you’re being called into a meeting with your employer or your school administration, try to get a consult before going into that meeting, or don’t go in alone.
And also document everything. Keep writing notes, send yourself emails, something with timestamps of events as they come in, because all of that will probably be useful down the line. If you’re experiencing doxing if you’re being harassed online, reach out to Palestine Legal and their network has people who can help with those particular situations.
It might also make sense to try to be preemptive and reach out to your employer or your university administration to let them know that that’s happening and make sure that they’re hearing first from you and not from, you know, those who are trying to smear you. And remember you’re not alone. Speak out about the repression rather than be silent about it.
It’s actually really helpful to be doing that. I think historically, we’ve gone back and forth on this question of whether we want to be sort of advertising how difficult it is to speak about Palestinian rights because we don’t want to be discouraging folks from doing it, but at this point, it’s well well past that point, everybody knows that this is happening, and I think when you speak out, you also draw support and solidarity and also can build organizing.
So organizing within your professional network or community, we’ve seen really inspirational models of artists coming together to support each other. We’ve seen people in the medical profession offer up support and finding employment when someone’s lost a job. I think that’s kind of the level at which we’re seeing solidarity and it’s a really important way to be building resilience in these moments of heightened targeting.
Yara Hawari 26:36
Apart from your, your own organizations, what legal resources would you suggest for people navigating this repression and this moment?
Layla Kattermann 26:47
There’s several know your rights resources available online also on the website of the ELSC. We listed a lot of legal resources for several different countries so that is accessible to everyone.
There’s also a lot of collectives of lawyers at the moment per country which are actively helping the Palestine Solidarity Movement. But more than anything, one should know their rights, their current repression is usually unconstitutional and unlawful. The police certainly is exercising unlawful conduct.
In those situations, it’s always useful to record the police, to register the officer and unit number and to scandalize it. One shouldn’t. Experience such repression and then deal with it alone. It is very helpful to publicize it. Once you do that, people also reach out to you and that’s how you can also get a group that will support you.
At the moment, people really are helping each other and standing in solidarity with each other against this repression that we’re seeing. So what’s really important to remember is that you’re not alone. You can report to us, the ELSC. And if any lawyer is listening, please connect with us. And more than anything, just know that there’s several ways in which you can fight back and that you shouldn’t accept any of this repression.
Diala Shamas 28:09
Definitely check out resources on Palestine Legal’s website. They have a range of resources, including things other groups have put out, whether its law enforcement contacts, doxing, navigating the university campus setting, that sort of thing.
If it specifically regarding state repression, whether it’s federal or local law enforcement, there are a range of organizations that can support you. So, contact, Palestine Legal may be able to also refer you and I mentioned your care office, your local ACLU Center for Constitutional Rights, if, if that’s the only thing that you remember in that moment, and we can try to find somebody to also refer you.
Yeah, I mean, those are the main, Legal resources but I think also to the point of building up our resilience, these are, of course, all the legal resources that we need in the first line of defense. But I’d also be remiss to not mention the importance of kind of taking care of yourself. And I’m not necessarily referring to the sort of self care mode of that, but remembering to breathe and to remember that you are in community and to reaching out to others within your community because that is actually the thing that allows us to keep going on.
These are really, really difficult times. We’re all feeling it. But we don’t really have a choice. other than kind of continuing to speak out that we all need to be doing it right now. And the consequences might be dire for us here in the US, but they are really, of course, far worse for the people in Gaza, as well as all over historic Palestine.
Yara Hawari 30:00
I think we’ll stop there. But thank you to both of you for this really important information and uplifting episode in light of everything that’s going on.
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